Ep.28 – Making Good Marketing Decisions with Jason Yormark

[00:00:02] Welcome to the All About Digital Marketing podcast. The show all about digital marketing, digital marketing, digital marketing, digital marketing brought to you by Social INK, the digital marketing agency specializing in social media and content marketing for brave brands and forward thinking SMEs. I’m your host, Chris Bruno, and as always, we’re here to bring you the most actionable tips, tricks, tools and insights to help you achieve more when it comes to your digital marketing. Subscribe to the show and be sure to share with a friend if you found something useful or interesting. You can find all the show notes and more information on w w w dot all about digital marketing dot co dot UK.

Chris Bruno [00:00:54] Jason, thank you very much for joining me today.

Jason Yormark [00:00:56] Thank you very much for having me.

Chris Bruno [00:00:57] It’s my pleasure. And I’ve been looking into a little bit online. I’m not going to lie.

Chris Bruno [00:01:01] And I feel like this conversation is going to be super aligned for both of us, because I think there’s a lot of things that we have to talk about today that are going to be I think we’re very much on the same track, actually. And I’m not thinking. But for anyone who doesn’t know you, can you tell them a little bit about yourself and about your social media agency, socialistic? If I’m pronouncing it right, you got it.

Jason Yormark [00:01:20] Yes. So my name is Jason Yormark, I’m the owner and founder of Socialistics, a social media agency based out of Seattle. And we help small to medium sized businesses manage their social media, as well as some other digital marketing things that kind of go along with that. I’ve been a marketer for, gosh, 20 plus years. I’ve spent time at Microsoft. I’ve been in a variety of different agencies. I’ve worked directly for businesses and brands that helped small mom and pops. But they’ve always had an entrepreneurial spirit and a passion for helping small businesses make good marketing decisions and kind of made a name for myself with social media. I got on to the Forbes Power Social Media Influencers list a few years ago and just really love the power of digital and what it could do to help businesses be successful in this day and age. So that’s who I am and that’s what I do as awesome.

Chris Bruno [00:02:08] And to be honest, I mean, so everyone that does know me.

Chris Bruno [00:02:11] Obviously, I own an agency as well, and I very much believe in the same sort of principles that you’re talking about, you know, whether it’s when we talk about small to mid-sized businesses. And funny enough, we were just talking about this before we jumped on start recording. And there’s so many definitions people can talk about small to midsize meeting mom and pops and some people can talk about small to mid-sized meaning companies on the 10 million dollars a year revenue. And I think that’s the key aspect that for me, anyway, is this idea that actually small, whichever way you define yourself is small, whether it’s you want to keep growing, whether you see bigger things or whether your mom and pops just trying to make sure that the business is still working for me. Digital marketing and social media in particular offers one of the biggest opportunities. I still believe that today full business is out there and that’s something I’d like you to give us your side on.

Jason Yormark [00:02:58] Yeah, I totally agree. I think that I mean, that’s the reason why agencies like ours exist, because in most cases, a lot of these businesses that kind of fall into that that small business category are in a place where they either they don’t they don’t have the expertise, they don’t have the desire or passion. And they don’t, you know, they’re not really interested in and read that work internally. So they need good partners that kind of help them navigate digital in ways that are measurable and meaningful for the business. So I come across a variety of different situations and businesses of all sizes and industries. But to say that the common thread between most of those is that they’ve either tried doing social or digital and they had no idea whether it works or they just had it didn’t have a great experience and a lot of time time off and having to kind of come in and re-educate or re-establish lines of trust with them because there are so many agencies and so many marketers. And it can be it can be challenging to find a good partner that not only delivers results, but communicates it in a way that they can understand and quantify to their business. So we you know, we certainly work hard to do that. But the fact of the matter is, it’s a tremendous opportunity. You’re talking about billions of users spending hours and hours of time on these channels. So it doesn’t really matter what you do, what your product or service is. There are eyeballs out there to get out in front of you. It really just comes down to executing, you know, making sure that you’re telling great stories and you’re putting them out there consistently. And a lot of times it means having a good partner that that can help. Can I help you with that? Most businesses are busy doing the things that they have to do. And typically managing social media and digital marketing kind of fall to the backburner because again, they don’t have that experience or passion and they’re so busy with other things.

Chris Bruno [00:04:58] That’s the key thing. It’s always but not always. That’s not fair. Recently, we were very lucky. We were invited to we labs for another session with eight different start-ups.

Chris Bruno [00:05:09] And the biggest thing that all of them actually sets also is time. And it always comes back down to with the majority of these people we talk to, it’s you know, it always takes time or this takes. You know, if I have to put time in to do that, someone they know. And the question that we usually end up asking them is, will, are you doing anything currently on social media? And pretty much all of them will say yes. So I’m saying, well, you’re already dedicating time to this. You’re already dedicating some form of resource to this. Wouldn’t it be better to do it in a strategic way whereby we’re actually looking for what those results would look like? And it’s something that I wanted to ask you about in your experience as an agency owner. For me, it’s it’s one of the most gut wrenching, horrible moments when I’m having these meetings at the beginning stages. And somebody tells me, for example, you know, we’ve been doing social media. Two years. And if I ask how’s it going? They say, well, you know, we’ve got X number of likes or comments or something. A lot of companies aren’t really tracking this. They’re not really using it as a tool to start getting results. Do you find that?

Jason Yormark [00:06:07] Absolutely. I actually have an incredible example of that, that I just kind of stumbled across a couple weeks ago. So we we the Air Force Act in the United States, Air Force of the Pacific Northwest, division of them, reached out to us organically looking for a new partner. And this is exactly what they were experiencing. They had worked with a couple of different agencies along the way. And, you know, we had a couple initial conversations and they liked, you know, what they were hearing from me and they were very transparent. And then they sent me actually examples of the reports that they would get kind of detailing the work that they were doing. And it was 30 or 40 page reports that were messy and very hard to digest. I mean, even for me as a marketer, I would look through these and it was I mean, it was a lot of time to work to try to navigate these reports. And I thought to myself, Jesus, taking me this law, me this long to figure out what’s going on here, I can only imagine what somebody that isn’t well versed in marketing or social media would think of something like this. And they were I mean, they had no idea how what they were spending and what was happening was resulting in meaningful, measurable results for this particular organization, which for them was trying to attract new folks to join their force. So, you know, they have these massive reports that basically really confuse them around clicks and likes and all of these ancillary metrics. And, you know, they all matter to a certain degree. I mean, these are all things that you want to do to create visibility for your business. But at the end of the day, they need to know what what. How is this resulting in actual results for us? How is it resulting in people actually reaching out to us to learn more about what it’s like to join the Air Force? And they couldn’t make that connection. And I think that’s where that’s the big difference between the right agency, like the cream of the crop that that top five to 10 percent. And I’m just making that number up. But something along those lines and everybody else is when an agency really can create strategy and execution that is measurable and digestible for a client, that they can actually understand what it is that you’re doing for them and how it’s actually meaningful for the business. And that’s where the biggest difference is. You know, there are a lot of great agencies that can tell great stories and do social really well. But they don’t have the depth. They don’t have the marketing depth and experience on staff to take that and turn it and connect it to a meaningful result for a business, whether that’s a sale, whether that’s a lead, whatever the goal and objective is of that particular client. And not only doing that, but communicating it in a way that helps them understand how you got there and what’s working and really kind of delivering communication and reporting that they can understand and that they can connect to. So to me, that’s that’s really where the biggest opportunity isn’t. And then with this particular like with this Air Force contact, like they really liked that idea. So for them, it was they were just throwing money at, getting clicks and getting visibility and getting it. But there was never a connection between that and people actually inquiring about joining the Air Force. And to me, I went back to them in there and really kind of took them through what you need to tell stories. You need to understand that people don’t know a lot of products for businesses are always point click. A lot of times it’s easy to be a lot of times as a longer customer funnel. So for them, it’s telling stories over an extended period of time that that takes that person on that journey because, you know, making the decision to join the Air Force is not a whim sort of thing. It’s I need to see these things consistently over time that get me more connected to this organization and get me from casual observer to I want to talk to somebody more about this. So I kind of took them through that and it helped them kind of navigate really what’s important and what they should be thinking about. But I see it all the time with businesses in terms of them having similar experiences. And it really just comes down to understanding the goals and objectives, digestible recording and communications and really establishing what those goals and objectives are and being able to communicate that to them on a regular basis.

Chris Bruno [00:10:19] So it makes me feel so much better, Jason, to know that I’m not the only agency owner coming across this more often than than I should be.

Jason Yormark [00:10:26] No, it happens a lot.

Chris Bruno [00:10:27] Well, a couple of questions about that. Do you ever think that the over complication of these kind of reports and stuff, this is an agency or a freelancer trying to sort of make it look more complicated to justify that fee or whatever it might be?

Jason Yormark [00:10:42] That’s exactly what’s happening so well. Well said. That is exactly what agencies a lot of agencies are doing, because if you make it confusing, if you make it very hard under. And the thought from a date from some of the agencies are that, well, the more complicated and the harder we can make it to understand, the more likely it is that they’re not going to spend a lot of time with it and they’re just going to feel overwhelmed and feel an increased reliance C on us to continue to do what we do. And I just I just don’t believe in that worry. We’re actually an agency that we work month to month. We don’t we don’t do long term contracts. We have to earn it every month. And sometimes, you know, what we do takes time. You know, a good agency will be transparent with you and help you understand that results don’t come immediately. It takes time to do it the right way and to ensure that you’re you’re planting the seeds and creating that storytelling that over time is going to build organic results. So we’re very transparent. So the best, best plans for us are the ones that understand that that they understand that it takes time. This is a partnership. It’s not going to happen overnight. But, yes, I mean, I come across all the time agencies over complicating the process, over complicating the communication to make them feel more advanced, that make them feel more advanced or come off as being more advanced and really just trying to have the clients in these companies feel this sense of overreliance on them because they feel like they’re never going to understand what they do and just trust that they’re doing what’s best for them. And a lot of cases. No, it’s not. And what happens is they they go six to 12 months and then they ask the hard questions, how does this matter to our business? Like we haven’t seen anything like I don’t get it. And that’s usually where then they start having to look elsewhere for somebody that can help them navigate that.

Chris Bruno [00:12:36] It’s a sad state of affairs, but I agree completely. So we’re not month to month, but the beginning, the longest contract we’ll have to sign is six months. And that’s because we believe it needs to be a good fit for them and a good fit for us.

Chris Bruno [00:12:48] But also because, you know, we spend a lot of time. So we recently started working with a consultant who basically helps schools to get through the assessment processes. And as part of that process at the beginning, especially, you know, this is a small company. This isn’t somebody who spent millions of pounds on budgets for branding and advertising and everything else. So we’re really helping to reconstruct from the ground up kind of thing. So we understand that there’s an element of, you know, we go a little bit above and beyond. Okay, cool. We’re going to help you with social, gonna help you tell your story. We can help you find leads. We try to sort of help in the best possible way. But like yourself in terms of, you know, you want to have that partnership feel with a client. And then once we get to the end of that. Exactly like you said to you on a month to month rolling contract. So at the end of the day, you know, you do need to do something that is viable for the business. Why should a business spend thousands and thousands every month to try and do something? But the worst bit is, is that you would receive an overly complicated report that could be summed up with, by the way, we spent 10 grand. We got zero leads now. Exactly. The reality is a lot of agencies and we find this as well, I don’t know about yourself, but in those initial conversations, I was early stage conversations. I can pretty much now tell you within the first 15 minutes of the meeting whether we’re going to end up working with a client or not.

Jason Yormark [00:14:04] Yeah, for sure.

Chris Bruno [00:14:07] It sounds like you have exactly the same sort of feeling.

Jason Yormark [00:14:09] Oh, yeah.

Chris Bruno [00:14:09] I tell their value, whether they like social or don’t really like social, whether they see this as being something they have to do because somebody higher up is told them they should or one of their friends told them they should, or whether they actually see this as no, we’re willing to get involved.

Chris Bruno [00:14:23] We want to go on a journey. We’re looking for a partner to take us through that journey. And we want to see results at the end of that journey. But it is a journey. It is always going to take time. Anyone who’s selling that, you know, if you work with me in 30 days, I’ll transform your business. I you know, for me, that scream scam.

Jason Yormark [00:14:39] Oh, yeah, I tell clients, what if somebody promises results or tells you that you’re going to see something in the first 30 or 60 days, I say that’s a red flag. You should. That that to you you should see that as look the other way or find somebody else kind of warning sign. So but yeah, I can totally relate. I know within 10 or 15 minutes whether it’s going to be a good fit. And as an agency owner, one of the things I’ve learned the hard way is that saying say, you know, should be a frequent and comfortable thing. Like you should know that not every opportunity is the right fit. And for us, you know, the right fit is usually, you know, they don’t have to be convinced that marketing is a thing that their business has to do to be successful. It’s a big one. They know that they have budget and that they and that we can help them. Those are really the three things. And but I do definitely come across quite a few situations where I know fairly quickly that it’s not going to be a good fit. And I start I still try to be a steward of good will. And I’m I’m my biggest passion is helping people make good decisions. Sometimes that means we work with companies and sometimes it just means I spend 30 minutes on the phone with somebody and give them some good advice and direction and let them know, hey, I don’t think this is a good fit. Here’s why. But that being. I think this is the path that makes the most sense for you, and here’s why. And that usually lands pretty well, folks, because you’re just you know, you’re taking an authentic approach with folks and they’re probably not used to businesses or agencies telling them this isn’t going to work. So there they can sometimes be surprised by that. But it’s that can be refreshing for them.

Chris Bruno [00:16:12] I think what’s what’s really interesting to me on what you’ve just said there and we usually have learned this through experience and what you’re saying about, you know, not every client is the right fit.

Chris Bruno [00:16:22] Not everything you do is perfect for every single person you ever speak to. And the way I learned it. So we’ve been around as an agency since 2008. So it’s long. The longest time. Now, I guess. But literally, you know, I used to well, about six, seven years ago, I started referring to them as bad profits. And it was literally the contracts that we had taken on board because we either thought it was a good idea or the money was good or whatever the reason was. But you knew it wasn’t a great fit and you were willing to kind of take the time. And it’s something that now we just simply won’t do. Like we won’t renew a contract with a client who every single thing is a problem. Every single thing is an issue. Every single thing needs to be changed. And they’re not liking it. They don’t like the strategy and they want to change again. And they’re not sure about that tone of voice and they want to change the brand guidelines every three weeks or whatever else it might be. But we call it we started calling them this bad prophets kind of thing. And it’s something that even though we know we’re marketers. But when you’re talking to small businesses, especially the smaller businesses, all they all quite new or anything else. I actually try and help as much as I can in this side of things as well, which is explaining that it’s okay not to be a perfect fit for everybody. In fact, to have a successful business, you shouldn’t be a perfect fit for everybody.

Jason Yormark [00:17:36] Yeah, no, I agree. And I think that it just really comes down to, you know, being helpful for folks and not everything’s going to be a good fit. And, you know, sometimes a business is better suited to half of their mother. They may not have enough budget or they don’t. You know, there are other areas of the business that that need to be addressed before they really spend a lot of time and money on marketing. Or it could be a variety of different things. And much like yourself, you know, a company when you when you find the right agency. You know, I always believed that online currency is trust. It’s really about if you find the right agency, you’ve got to put trust in that. They are going to do a good job and they are going to be a good advocate for what you’re doing and become an extension of your business. And it takes time and it takes patience. And if you don’t have a runway, if you don’t have a comfortable runway of budget and time and patience to let it become a great thing, it’s not going or it’s not going to work out and you’re better suited in another way. So that’s that’s typically what I look for in those initial conversations is kind of those red flags around. You know, the budget is an uncomfortable thing for them or they don’t seem to have a whole lot of patience. Maybe their product or service is struggling in ways that marketing isn’t gonna fix.

Jason Yormark [00:18:56] And so sometimes they don’t you know, they don’t want to be told.

Jason Yormark [00:19:00] Like the phrase in the US is they don’t nobody wants to be told that their baby’s ugly. And I just you know, there’s respectful ways to tell businesses, hey, I actually think this is where the problem lies. And, you know, sometimes it might come to you in thinking that social media or marketing is going to be this this quick fix. But it’s actually, you know, their website doesn’t optimize the right way. And the user experience is, you know, misplaced or, you know, there’s so many other things that could be contributing to a lack of success for them that marketing isn’t going to solve for. So I’m very careful about that as well in terms of setting expectations around, you know what you know, because, you know, I’ve been a business owner and I oftentimes I feel like I’m almost acting kind of like a business consultant in addition to being a marketer and trying to help them navigate that. So, again, it’s all about being a good fit and making sure that you’re getting into mutually beneficial relationships.

Chris Bruno [00:19:55] I think that’s again, it sounds very similar.

Chris Bruno [00:19:59] We honestly believe, you know, you can’t forget that horse is probably how we play in England. But when you when you’re having that initial convo and the founder especially, we find this with with UPS like in terms of tech start-ups.

Chris Bruno [00:20:12] So they’ve started building. They’ve been building for a while and they’re so convinced of what they’re trying to do and they’ve got so much invested that they can’t see anything else. And what’s quite interesting is when we talk especially about social media and we’re telling them, you know, ask other people’s opinion, don’t presume, you know your client, don’t presume you know best. Don’t presume that you’ve got. All right, perfect. Straight away. And there’s nothing wrong with that. By the way, you know, there’s nothing wrong with not getting a 100 percent right. Day one. In fact, none of the apps that we use, all the same version that came out on release day. They are constantly being innovated on and changed. And they usually done based on the feedback and the input and the data that comes from the. We’ll use it. So it’s not somebody just deciding how to make it better or anything else. They’re actually taking into account what’s going on around them. And what you mentioned that you end up having these conversations that are far bigger than just social media. I mean, if you and I only ever said right, what we want to do is post here like this. Like that. And we didn’t have any kind of concept of the marketing that goes in behind that. So the landing pages, the products ization, whatever it might be, that’s holding it up. It doesn’t matter how good the social media is. It’s never going to start generating real results.

Jason Yormark [00:21:22] Now, I totally agree. You know, I made a decision a long time ago to to lead as a social media agency. But once we get into those initial conversations with folks, it’s it’s so much more than that. And it goes back to kind of what you were saying in that it’s more about just posting great content. And, you know, there’s a lot of data that goes into a social if you want to create an environment where you can map that out. Those efforts to true business results. And so there are a lot of other factors that go into that in terms of effective landing pages and, you know, the right user experience on your Web site. And so there’s a lot of moving parts that have to kind of be in lockstep to ensure that what’s happening in your digital environments are set up in ways that are that are measurable, meaningful and connect with the right users at the right times. So there’s definitely a level of sophistication, but that’s why agencies exist, because it’s a lot of work, it’s a lot of expertise. And the businesses that do well with it put the right people and resources in that and take it seriously and ensure that they they understand that it’s a huge opportunity. But it also takes a similar level of commitment and consistency that any other part of your business might have to be successful.

Chris Bruno [00:22:39] That’s the key there as well. Again, it’s this idea of if you want to get results out, you’ve got to put some effort in.

Chris Bruno [00:22:46] And again, for me, I know that the agency solution is not right for every client we meet. We know that and we don’t try and push them. We also decided it was probably about last year, end of last year, that we would not create sort of bespoke small packages to try and help people and to try and fit for other people. We just might not look to be honest with you. You know, we’ve been doing this a long time without a certain level of commitment in terms of content, in terms of whether it be blog articles, video creation, content creation for social media, the story, the consistency of posting and then actually engaging and getting involved in conversations, whether they be your own or as part of other communities online. If you don’t have that kind of level of input. The reality is you won’t get the results, which as an agency ends up basically meaning that people talk badly about you, even though she doesn’t a reason nothing you did was wrong. But you did explain actually only doing one blog a month and three posts a month is not going to generate any kind of real engagement. Users, clients, conversions, whatever your ideas that you’re tracking as your main result and that’s about it can be tough. I think that can be tough not just for a old agency kind of business, but I like to be tough for a lot of businesses, especially the early days is recognizing that, you know, there’s a reason you created the product that you created. And usually it’s a good fit for X or a good fit for Y. And for some people, you know, we can’t all afford to drive around in a Porsche.

Jason Yormark [00:24:10] Yeah, it’s interesting I that a lot of the conferences that I go to or speak at 90, 90 percent of those, if not more of the folks that I reach are not going to be folks that we work with. They just there, they don’t have the resources and they need to be kind of taught how to fish. They’re still in a place where they have to kind of manage it internally. So I really just try to help them navigate that. In terms of what are what are some of the tactical things that they can do to kind of create some momentum and at least get them into a position where they can get some help or afford some help. It’s tough. You know, it’s you know, I wish we could help everybody, but it’s just I learned this the hard way. You know, we tried starting an agency about 70 years ago, and most of my clients were those small, really small businesses like the ones I can only afford a couple of hundred dollars a month. And while I could line up 50 clients like nobody’s business there, it didn’t scale because their needs were as big as clients that can afford a couple thousand dollars a month. But their budgets are much smaller and successful. Digital, successful, social is people driven. I mean, there’s certainly technology out there that helps manage it. But at the end of the day, great digital marketing and great social media is is people powered it. It’s people that are that are great writers that have strategic, that think through things strategically. It takes time. And if you want it done well, you need really talented people that can communicate really well and strategize and be able to connect the dots between telling your story and and how. That can connect to results for business. So it’s it’s not you know, it’s not cheap. It takes real people and really great people. And so it’s it’s one of two buckets. Either you’re a business that can afford and work with an agency that’s going to help you with that or you need to kind of work your way towards that and figure out how can you do some things in the in the interim, in the beginning stages of your business to kind of build some momentum so that you can get to a place where having folks help you with that makes sense for both sides.

Chris Bruno [00:26:26] It’s always a funny one, though, because people want everything and they want it for nothing, so they’re easily duped into the idea of the latest growth hack or the you know, this one funnel turned my business into a seven figure monster or whatever it is that people are trying to flog these days.

Chris Bruno [00:26:46] And it’s something that’s really frustrating. As a marketer and I had this conversation with lots of people within the community, I personally effing hate growth hacking as a top because it gives this impression that there’s this couple of clicks and a hidden button on Facebook that we don’t tell people about. That allows us to suddenly make magic happen. And you’re not going. It just doesn’t exist. I don’t know anyone who’s got everything 100 percent right. First time without there being a considerable amounts of luck. I know I’m not taking away from experience and from knowledge and from having done these things before. But even we’re surprised on a regular basis when we go to do client client work and we’re doing promotions or campaigns will often have like an outlier campaign that we kind of felt might give us some information or some more data. And it ends up being the one that actually performs best. And it’s a it’s kind of a constant learning process and a constant evolution of trying to understand that. But these people that can sit there and say, you know, if you do this one trick, this will change your business. It infuriates me because it takes away exactly what you’ve mentioned, that social media, digital marketing is people powered it. It comes down to trying. Trial and error, experimentation, conversations, building this trust, building this community, building these relationships online. And all of those things take time, effort and consistency. Something that so many people kind of don’t want to to either commit to or that don’t understand the commitment that’s required.

Jason Yormark [00:28:17] Yeah, I agree with my I don’t like the term growth axe either. To me, it’s click bait. It’s just, you know, people trying to obviously get quick attention. So you can’t plan for growth hacks or viral situations. I mean, they happen, but you can’t plan for it, right? Sometimes. I mean, you can try and do some things that that let that lend themselves to be more likely that they happen. But they’re the exception, not the rule. So as a business, you can’t you can’t plan for that. And it’s almost like winning the lottery. You can’t plan for winning the lottery. You need to have a sustainable income stream. You’ve got to get a job or, you know, you’ve got you’ve got to do smart strategic things that for ninety nine point nine percent of businesses. This is the path you’ve got. You’ve got to plan for that consistency. And sometimes along those lines, you might hit on something day and then it creates that kind of by reality or. All right. Or a growth hack for yourself. But you know, though, those I guess those are the exception that they’re not the rule. And if you try to plan for those things, you’re just going to fail miserably. And you really need to have that consistency and you have to have the right foundations in place to kind of get to where it is that you’re trying to get in. You know, a lot of businesses don’t they can’t see it through that lens. They they’re not patient enough. And again, that’s a red flag for us. But I you know, I try to help businesses understand that, you know, you really have those organic conversations up front and then really help them understand, like this is the right formula for success. And that may not be right for you. But, you know, we know that this is the this is the path that it takes to be successful. And if they’re really focussed on, hey, I want we want to create this really super viral video, like you can’t you don’t know you just don’t know if that’s going to happen. And those things can are more likely to happen organically if you’re doing the right things and telling the right stories and putting it in front of the right people.

Chris Bruno [00:30:08] I find it tough because I think every business or every agency owner I’ve ever met has had that question at some point, which is, you know, can you make us go viral?

Chris Bruno [00:30:17] And it’s the face palm moment for any agency, employee or owner at that time when you have to sit there and say that that’s not quite how it works. But, you know, if we could we just do that all day and we’d be very, very rich. But the idea being that I think too many people are looking for the shiny new thing. And I wanted to ask your opinion on this. And I think, you know, people like Gary V at the moment and quite a lot of others actually, you know, hammering into everyone saying tick tock, tick tock, tick tock. You got to get in there. You’ve got to get in there. And what we end up invariably finding with clients and especially smaller businesses, where time is an issue. Resources are an issue. All of the nice new shiny tools and the extras and the new platform and the whatever else for us. Anyway, we find it to be a bit of a distraction. And it takes away from exactly what you were mentioning, which, you know, I hope I break it down to people as it’s the 80 20 rule, 80 percent is showing up, showing up, consistently talking, engaging, speaking with your audience, actually giving them a reason to be part of your community is 80 percent of the battle. It’s not the shiny new toy. It’s not the new network. It’s not because you shift now from LinkedIn outreach for your B2B, that you go create two videos on ticked ticktock that you’re suddenly going to start making millions of pounds. I don’t believe that. But what’s your what’s your opinion on that? And how do you think small businesses should combat that kind of foe or that need to sort of jump on the new bandwagon?

Jason Yormark [00:31:39] That’s a great point. I think that the majority of the businesses that we come across and really that exist in the world don’t need to be jumping on the next great thing like you. Even to this day as an agency, we don’t even touch Snapchat. You know, even though they have a ton of users and a lot of times it just comes out like, what is your business like? What do you do? You know, like the Nike’s of the world or you know. You know. Big brands. Know brands that just have multi, multi-million or billion dollar marketing. I mean, of course they should be there. They’re trying. They’re there. They’re about brand extension. You know, they’re they’re about the the small moving pieces that extend over time. So the Pepsi is co Nike. You know, obviously it makes sense for them to be everywhere in doing everything. Small businesses can’t afford to do that, even if they’re working with an agent. You can’t be everywhere all the time.

Jason Yormark [00:32:31] And the only exception there is if a your product or service lends itself to maybe a younger audience and it’s about brand building. And then B is do you do you enjoy you personally enjoy using Snapchat or Tic TAC? Are there are these tools or channels that you actually love being on and can make a commitment to using regularly and authentically? And that’s rarely the case. So I you know, people pop and, you know, you see these articles about Facebook is dying or it’s becoming an older demographic or nobody uses these old school. And it’s like, well, actually, they do. There’s still billions of users and they’re spending hours of time on these channels now. Yes, engagement numbers might be going down, but, you know, we’ve become a society of casual consumers. So then the example I always give businesses about, you know, why should we be on Facebook? And I give the example of all I think about your own habits. You know, you’re sitting in front of a two screen world. You know, you’re sitting in front your TV that your iPad or your phone. We all do it. You know, whether it’s during commercial breaks or we’re just kind of casualties scrolling through, you know, people are still consuming. And you need to have those touch points. You need to be in these places and the numbers don’t lie. So I don’t care what your personal opinion is of Facebook or if you don’t use it. The fact of the matter is, billions of people do and they spend a lot of time on it and all of these channels matter. They had time to mature. They’ve had time to really create sizable audiences. And you’ve got to pick your battles like you can’t. I always say it’s better to be great at less things than to be average at everything. And even if you’re working with an agency, in most cases, you still have to prioritize some things because you’re not going to have this unlimited budget to be everywhere. And it does make sense to be everywhere, especially depending on what your product or services, what your goals and objectives are. A good agency is going to help you navigate and pick the right places to be and where to prioritize and be great at those and test everything. Like any agency that tells you that they know exactly where you need to be and what exactly is going to be a work. That’s another red flag you have to test. You have to figure out what makes sense and where what works and then iterate along the way. So a really good agency is going to be one that admits that they don’t know everything and that they’re going to take time to work with you to understand this is what we think is going to work best and we’re going to test it and then we’re going to iterate it and then we’re going to figure out where it makes the most sense and what makes the most sense to do that works best for your business. So so, yeah, I typically stay away from a lot of the up and comers because that’s how, you know, they just you know, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for the four smaller businesses that have to prioritize their marketing efforts.

Chris Bruno [00:35:14] There’s probably two things I’m going to pick up on. From what you’ve just said of then again, totally aligned. So I think I have to be careful. I have to find a way to try and disagree with you so we can have more of an animated conversation.

Chris Bruno [00:35:24] But some that there’s two things like the first one is when people say things like Facebook is that and, you know, no one’s on there or whatever it is and you need to be on the next big thing. I bring out the numbers and I just giggle and I laugh. And one of the questions that I usually ask, especially small, small businesses or start-ups, is how many clients would you need to massively impact your business right now? I’m not talking about how to get to unicorn status or anything else. I’m saying like, what would take you from where you’re at now, which is doing okay, or maybe struggling a little bit to feeling absolutely great and having enough money in the bank every month to make payroll and everything you need to then start developing and building. And invariably, you know, depending on the product, you’ll be talking on average somewhere in the region of 10 to 100 200 clients. It starts to gain change for small businesses, especially in the service sector and things like that.

Chris Bruno [00:36:14] So when I can break that down in terms of numbers and you say, OK, cool, so we need 200 people realistically in the next few months to really change things within your business. And you’re telling me that the platform has one point six billion people logging in every day is not the place for us to look. And invariably the people stop you like that. So now do you want to go and figure out ticktock and play and like you said, take that commitment on yourself to get on there every day and post content and come up with funny, clever ways to market yourself when you don’t necessarily even do the basics. You don’t even do the simplistic parts of telling your story or regularly turning up, showing up to to get involved with these people. And the second thing isn’t exactly what you mentioned. The two screen, which, you know, I’ve got a godson who’s 15 and I think I’m being polite if I say to screen for him. You know, he’s got his laptop because he’s gaming and talking to people. He’s got his mobile phone. On in the background that he’s probably got a tablet somewhere hanging around to do something at the same time, so many screens and it’s the idea for us and the way my commercial breaks. James talks about this a lot. We kind of refer to it as the tapping on the window effect. And it’s this idea, you know, you’re at home, you’re doing your own thing. And just every now and again, you get this little tick, tick, hey, we’re over here. And it’s this this constant communications, constant reminder, this telling the story of this happening, this relationship with building a relationship with people that comes from multiple little touches, not from one big buy this now 10 percent off or 20 percent off like so many people do.

Jason Yormark [00:37:41] Yeah, I know. It’s it’s that consistency. I mean, you’ve got to be in the right places at the right times. And you just you can’t treat your marketing like a light switch. Once you do that, it’s not going gonna work. And that means getting some help or that means just making a commitment to do it yourself. And then you have the. You just have to. You have to stay on it because it’s the only way it’s the sum of all those efforts. That’s going to lead to those results. It’s never going to be. It’s rarely going to ever be one thing. That’s that’s going to, you know, create that level of success for you.

Chris Bruno [00:38:12] OK. So if you could give all our listeners one piece of advice, the most solid piece of advice that you can think of for social media, digital, and what would it be?

Jason Yormark [00:38:23] I would think, you know, the number one piece of advice is is really around. You know, we we talked about storytelling. And ultimately, when you when you throw out the word social, I mean, you know, we’ve been social beings, you know, since the beginning of time.

Jason Yormark [00:38:41] You know, the only thing that’s changed is the technology or the hot how we do it, you know. So, you know, back pre Internet, you know, you talked you know, there was people actually talking to each other, which has become less and less of a thing, or that it was television or radio. And now we’ve got the Internet and now we’ve got all of these multiple screens. So, you know, the means with which we are social with each other can change. But ultimately, what has never changed is storytelling. People love stories. And it doesn’t matter what your business does, whether it’s manufacturing or whether you have a product that really lends itself to great stories. It’s not always just about that. It’s about who you are and what got you there and what makes you unique or different. And people do business with, you know, people buy from businesses that they trust and that they like and that they find interesting. And that is all accomplished by really great storytelling, great writing, great visuals and that consistency. So ultimately, whether you are a business that. Has the means to do that internally or whether you need to get help to do that consistently. You that’s that’s the only path to success. I mean, there are a lot of other things that go into it, but that is the foundationally the piece that you have to get, right. And if you can’t do it internally, get help. If you can do it internally. You’ve got to you’ve got to put that to the top, the list of the priority and know that you have to authentically create that content that talks about who you are, what you do, what makes you unique and different and be consistent with it. So it’s all storytelling. It really is. And I think as a business, you just have to determine what’s the what’s the most likely path to doing that. Right. And then just knowing that. You need to go down that path. Whether it’s figuring out how to do it internally or finding something that can help you do that.

Chris Bruno [00:40:38] Also, penultimate question for you. And I’m always intrigued. What’s your favourite personal social media network?

Jason Yormark [00:40:48] That’s a great question. I always tell people like I actually don’t spend a lot of time on social personally. It’s kind of that analogy I use where you say you’re an auto mechanic and you’re working on cars all day. The last going home and work on your car. So it’s kind of the similar thing for me. But if I had to pick one that I spend the most time on, probably Instagram, I think that, you know, it’s free of the political and content that just drives you nuts. To me, it’s much more visual and artistic and free of a lot of controversial things.

Jason Yormark [00:41:25] So I just you know, it’s it’s easy to kind of just be able to kind of create streams of content.

Jason Yormark [00:41:32] That’s interesting to you. Whether, you know, for me that can be writing or they can be art or movies or just things of that nature. So for me, it’s easy to kind of just get in there and casually look at things that I enjoy.

Jason Yormark [00:41:47] So that’s probably the one that I personally like the most.

Chris Bruno [00:41:51] And it has a lot less negativity than Twitter.

Jason Yormark [00:41:53] Exactly. That’s probably the biggest thing. I never get in there and feel like it dampens my mood.

Chris Bruno [00:42:00] So that’s actually a real shame. I must’ve found a Twitter.

Chris Bruno [00:42:04] I’ve met some incredible people through that one thing now and just every now and again, your feet just get covered with just horrendous. It feels like the world’s polarizing more and more. And apparently we have absolutely no social barriers to just be able to say, look, you believe X, I believe Y. Why don’t we all just move on with our day? It’s like that. No, no. I have to destroy you for believing X. Yeah, I believe Y or vice versa when I disagree anymore.

Jason Yormark [00:42:31] That’s great. I can’t I can’t disagree with people, you know, respectfully. So I just find that Instagram’s kind of void of those sorts of things. It’s really just kind of authentic and. That’s just easier, you know.

Jason Yormark [00:42:44] It’s more enjoyable,.

Chris Bruno [00:42:46] Easier and prettier. I have to fight,.

Jason Yormark [00:42:47] Right? Exactly.

Chris Bruno [00:42:49] Awesome. Jason. Thank you very much. Where can everybody connect with you? How can they find you online?

Jason Yormark [00:42:54] Awesome. Yes. So you can find a set socialistics dot com or on all of the social channels, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube linked to just search for socialistic. It’s pretty unique name, so it’s easy to find. So you can find us there. And you know, I have my personal blog at Jason Yormark dot com, where I write a lot about just helping small businesses and those sorts of things.

Chris Bruno [00:43:18] Awesome. We’ll drop those links into the show notes as well on our Web site. So feel free to find them there and let Jason know that you you’ve heard him on the show and also ask him some questions.

Chris Bruno [00:43:28] It sounds like he’s he’s nice enough to give you some advice one way or the other, even if you’re not going down the agency route to this stage.

Jason Yormark [00:43:34] Absolutely.

Chris Bruno [00:43:35] Jason, thank you very much again.

Jason Yormark [00:43:37] Thank you.

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